Writing sex: a confession
Jan. 21st, 2009 01:26 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
fictionalIt may come as a surprise to those of you who read IHNIIHBT, which is sort of a pornographic epic, but I greatly dislike writing sex.
No, really.
I hate it a lot. Which is funny because lately, we've been doing a lot of it.
Don't get me wrong. I love that our story is so filthy and x-rated. In fact, sometimes I even think it could stand to be filthier. I like reading sex. Oh man, do I. Porn, for me, is a primarily written-word driven thing, and it was that way long before I discovered fandom and its box of erotic delights. Think reading bodice-rippers and skimming my way through Tess of the D'Urbervilles at seven, desperately (and unsuccessfully, fuck you, Thomas Hardy) searching for the dirty bits...! Flipping through the Mists of Avalon for the threesome scene, etc. etc.
But writing it? A resounding "feh!"
For one thing, it's really hard [no pun intended]. Sex is repetitive. We have a finite number of moving parts, we have a finite number of slots for those parts to fit into. We tweak, we stroke, we push, we pull, we slap, we tickle; we get wet, we get hard. It feels great, except when it doesn't. And if you add in too many adverbs and adjectives -- you run the risk of sounding like a romance novel, a bad romance novel.
I don't know about you, but I have sex in my head. If my brain isn't getting off, I can spasm all I want, but I haven't come. It's no good to me without the brainfuck. There's an internal narrative always going on -- which mirrors to varying degrees what's actually happening in the physical, corporeal world. Sometimes, the degree is zero. Things I would never do "for real", things I would find actively offensive or disturbing if I weren't in bed, and believing that the things people imagine or play at in order to find pleasure are all perfectly okay.1
Thing is, when you're writing, the characters can't have internal narratives, unrelated to what's around them, because they're already in a narrative! Hell, they are the narrative. And of what interest to the reader -- who's using your story to furnish their own fantasy about say, Jack and Ianto -- is an internal, unrelated narrative that the character might possibly be having, if they were real? My feeling is, generally speaking, probably not much. Because that's like being OOC on purpose, and no one wants to see that, right?
So there's ways around it. Hence: dirty talk, d/s, drag, s & m, 3somes -- all games that are all about the stories you tell yourself. Narratives embraced and imposed.
But. I have to wonder, what are the fantasies of fantasies? What are the stories that stories whisper to themselves in the dark, or the ones they hold tightly to themselves, too ashamed even to say out loud?
Because that? That might be hot.
1That's what I tell myself anyway. Rationalizations: more important than sex. Think about it. Ever made it through a day without a rationalization? Yeah..
No, really.
I hate it a lot. Which is funny because lately, we've been doing a lot of it.
Don't get me wrong. I love that our story is so filthy and x-rated. In fact, sometimes I even think it could stand to be filthier. I like reading sex. Oh man, do I. Porn, for me, is a primarily written-word driven thing, and it was that way long before I discovered fandom and its box of erotic delights. Think reading bodice-rippers and skimming my way through Tess of the D'Urbervilles at seven, desperately (and unsuccessfully, fuck you, Thomas Hardy) searching for the dirty bits...! Flipping through the Mists of Avalon for the threesome scene, etc. etc.
But writing it? A resounding "feh!"
For one thing, it's really hard [no pun intended]. Sex is repetitive. We have a finite number of moving parts, we have a finite number of slots for those parts to fit into. We tweak, we stroke, we push, we pull, we slap, we tickle; we get wet, we get hard. It feels great, except when it doesn't. And if you add in too many adverbs and adjectives -- you run the risk of sounding like a romance novel, a bad romance novel.
I don't know about you, but I have sex in my head. If my brain isn't getting off, I can spasm all I want, but I haven't come. It's no good to me without the brainfuck. There's an internal narrative always going on -- which mirrors to varying degrees what's actually happening in the physical, corporeal world. Sometimes, the degree is zero. Things I would never do "for real", things I would find actively offensive or disturbing if I weren't in bed, and believing that the things people imagine or play at in order to find pleasure are all perfectly okay.1
Thing is, when you're writing, the characters can't have internal narratives, unrelated to what's around them, because they're already in a narrative! Hell, they are the narrative. And of what interest to the reader -- who's using your story to furnish their own fantasy about say, Jack and Ianto -- is an internal, unrelated narrative that the character might possibly be having, if they were real? My feeling is, generally speaking, probably not much. Because that's like being OOC on purpose, and no one wants to see that, right?
So there's ways around it. Hence: dirty talk, d/s, drag, s & m, 3somes -- all games that are all about the stories you tell yourself. Narratives embraced and imposed.
But. I have to wonder, what are the fantasies of fantasies? What are the stories that stories whisper to themselves in the dark, or the ones they hold tightly to themselves, too ashamed even to say out loud?
Because that? That might be hot.
1That's what I tell myself anyway. Rationalizations: more important than sex. Think about it. Ever made it through a day without a rationalization? Yeah..
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
*plays Devil's Advocate*
Date: 2009-01-21 08:55 am (UTC)For me, the boring in sex scenes comes (*juvenile giggle*) in forgetting that they are SCENES first and SEX second. If the characters are exactly the same at the end of the scene as they were at the beginning, with no advancement of plot, no emotional development, no hints at backstory, a static POV who risks nothing of him/herself and, in short, no GROWTH (*another juvenile giggle*), I'll feel I've utterly failed. The sex will feel stilted. Rehearsed. Like a series of schemata or an over-rehearsed dance...
"You do this to me, two, three, four...
"I do this to you, two, three four..."
In rading others' work, that'll be the point at which my eyes glaze over and I flip to the next web page.
(Myself, I don't go on the hunt for smut, though my Beta Ophymirage is constantly cluing me in to the latest, greatest, and the classics. Were it not for her, I'd be a complete hermit, which is why I love her to death.)
The scenes that do it for me are the ones that give me just enough WANTING. It's that intent that makes my blood rush a little faster through all the right veins and arteries. I love the wooing. The wanting. The long looks. The first touches. The tentative overtures. Even the awkward moments that everyone has, where you WANT more than you feel you'll get to have, and both parties are fighting mutual desire.
Why d'you think Master/Ten can be Teh Hawtness?
I also qualify sex as being far more than penetration. Far more than who's "on top". Even more than who does or does not ejaculate (or reach orgasm in a bunch of other ways.) Sex is a form of communication. It's the wish to give and receive pleasure in all its many and multitudinous forms. And the character of the person who is giving, receiving, or (best of all possible worlds) sharing, to me will always steer HOW that person communicates.
As such, I have yet to exhaust all the possible configurations, emotions, attitudes, and -- yes -- positions that might yield up sexual pleasure for my characters.
For me, a sex scene needs to be more than, "Hey, I'd really like to do the horizontal mambo with you." For me, it's about what leads up to the mambo. What steps are in the mambo. And (too often neglected), what happens AFTER the mambo is over.
I go through several drafts of any chapter/story that I put up. Sex features prominently in most of them, because I write what I know and what I like to read.
I know that I'm on the right track if just thinking about the scene makes me need to go have some time in my bunk.
I know I've REALLY got something if Ophymirage has to stop beta-ing to go have some time in her bunk.
I take it as the sincerest compliment if my fen are too incoherent to give a decent review because they need to retreat to their bunks.
IN SUM: In my not-so-humble opinion, Sex should always assist plot and speak to character and relationship. But at the end of the day, if what I write didn't DO IT for me, I'd hang up my pen.
Re: *plays Devil's Advocate*
Date: 2009-01-21 05:31 pm (UTC)I think I owe the bad fic writers out there a debt of gratitude. By frustrating me and leaving me feeling bereft or even...excuse the pun, left hanging...it pushes me to do better than what's out there, both in my emotional payoffs and my sexual ones. For the most part, I think I get there. But I could be wrong.
Re: *plays Devil's Advocate*
Date: 2009-01-21 11:25 pm (UTC)When I read a really PHENOMENAL fic, I'll look at it obsessively. Bookmark it. Reread. Refer back to it. But I'll also be severely intimidated.
The thinking is, "OMGOMGOMGOMGOMG I SUCK! There is NO WAY I could ever be that awesome!"
This is bad for my productivity.
When I read a really BAD fic, I roll my eyes and move on. It's the middling ones that get me.
The thinking is, "OMG that is the BEST idea! Wait, WHAT are you doing with it?"
Or, "OMG what an AWESOME scene! Wait, why didn't you develop this... or this... or that?"
Or, "OMG that is the BEST pairing/grouping evah! Wait, why is everyone acting OOC? You had such a great chance to work with the UST and characters as they existed."
THOSE are the ones that get me writing. The ones that, in one way or another, make me think, "Okay, that was cool, but what if instead of this we did..."
*hugs Kahtya* I would argue that your Janto is more in-character than mine, by and large because Canon!Jack pisses me off and makes me want to throw things at him. (You notice how much he gets tortured in my fics.) Your stories are more character-driven than mine, and more focused on emotional and character growth.
As for me, I freely admit I just use plot and character development as a thinly-disguised excuse for porn. ;)
Re: *plays Devil's Advocate*
Date: 2009-01-21 11:51 pm (UTC)About the only fic these days that has really knocked my socks off and made me put it in memories and read and re-read it is the stuff Kalichan & Rach have written. I use the back button a lot these days.
Hey, Jack is very painfully flawed. He's irreparably damaged but THAT'S what I love about him. He's a reformed bad boy who's heart is in the write place even though he fucks up constantly. He knows he fucks up, he just does the best he can.
Hey, I like it when Jack gets tortured but I can't deny being fascinated by that side of him that gets off on causing pain, no matter how deeply he pushes that side of himself down. I don't mind reading a little OOC if the change in character remains interesting. I WILL NOT read a feminized Ianto. Nope. No way. Or a Jack that weepingly tells Ianto he loves him. Nope. Won't do it.
Re: *plays Devil's Advocate*
Date: 2009-01-22 12:58 am (UTC)Um. Er. How much would you kill me if I'd mistaken you for kalichan when I made that comment about character-driven?
*kicks self for having replied to too many things*
BUT!! I completely agree with you about Jack. He's broken, which is what makes him fun to play with. There is MUCH more to him than meets the eye. The key is to get beyond the Prince Charming smile and sexually-charged banter than are his armour and shield against a world that hasn't always been kind to him.
Feminized Ianto = MADE OF FAIL
But I'll fight you on the Jack telling Ianto he loves him. People can argue with me (I invite it), but I DO believe that Jack loves Ianto very much. More than is comfortable. More than he wants to admit. That's why he runs from it. Makes light of it. Tries to keep Ianto always a little off balance. He's compensating -- if Ianto is perpetually off balance, then maybe no one will notice how uneasy Jack is with the relationship and his own emotions.
Weeping, "OMGOMGOMGOMG I LOVESSSSSSSSSS you so much!"
No.
Fail. Lots and lots of Fail.
But if you can get Jack open enough. Comfortable enough. Uncomfortable enough. Afraid enough. Then maybe. Jack might run from it again later. Might deny it. Might try to make light of it. But it's THERE. And what makes him all the more miserable are two facts and I cannot escape about Jack:
1) Jack is not the marrying kind. He loves people. He cares about people. But he's always a bit less hazardous as the Friends With Benefits kind. This makes me INSANE, as I prefer the Happily Ever After ending and now have to write around this. (I just ignored it in DANCING LESSONS, arguing that Nine and Rose were the loves of his life and the only two who might be able to drag him to the altar.)
2) Jack is immortal. All relationships are temporary for him. For him to be tempted to make a long-term commitment, his partner would have to be TRULY extraordinary AND have some staying power. Some ability to survive. Ianto, IMNSHO, fits these requirements, but only if you ignore certain really stupid canon contradictions. Ianto's a sweet boy, but he has a will of iron when pushed.
I always keep in mind that Ianto is the only member of Torchwood 3 other than Jack who has actually shot a fellow coworker.
And the look on Owen's face? PRICELESS.
Anyway. I'm intrigued by the idea of SecretlyViolent!Jack. I have about 20-odd chapters left in FAITHFUL and that could be interesting.
And it's something John would know about Jack, and John is a VERY good Top.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Re: *plays Devil's Advocate*
Date: 2009-01-22 02:47 am (UTC)Yes, yes, yes, yes! Totally agree, 100%.
Don't get me wrong, I completely believe Jack loves Ianto. He's head over heals for that boy. What I meant by my earlier comment was that because Jack and Ianto are blokes, they don't spend their time staring longingly into one another's eyes professing their undying love for each other. It's much more subtle and non-verbal than all that. But Jack very much loves Ianto, that's for sure.
As for Jack being the marrying kind...I think at his core, he would like to be. He comes from a strong family unit. Had his life gone another way, he would have liked to settle down. But, Jack's a live-in-the-moment kind of guy so he realizes that's not practical for him any longer, and probably hasn't been a good idea since he went off to war as a teenager. Jack realizes that because all relationships are temporary for him, marriage is out of the question. Also, it's not the least bit practical given the nature of TW.
I also agree that Jack is drawn to Ianto first because they are equally fucked up and damaged but also, Ianto is a survivor. A total will of iron, that boy has. Ianto also clearly sees how fucked up Jack is loves him because of it. Jack's drawn to him because Jack can just be Jack and not The Captain, all the time.
Which TW member did Jack shoot?
Yes, that side of Jack that used to torture did not go away. It just went on hiatus under the Doctor's influence. It's still there, though and it needs to come out and play once in while.
John may be a good Top, and he may be well acquainted with Dark!Jack but, as Jack said in Exit Wounds, he was the one in control of John. Jack may be the ONLY person John has submitted to, though.
Re: *plays Devil's Advocate*
Date: 2009-01-22 03:29 am (UTC)*wilts and channels cleaner-shrimp from FINDING NEMO*
I am ashamed.
Anyway, I agree that K & R are Empresses of character-driven fic. They kick my ass.
Don't get me wrong, I completely believe Jack loves Ianto. He's head over heals for that boy. What I meant by my earlier comment was that because Jack and Ianto are blokes, they don't spend their time staring longingly into one another's eyes professing their undying love for each other.
GRIN! Absolutely. I wrote my first few stories mostly from Ten and Rose's POVs. The Doctor has much more Wibble and Emo than the average guy. For TW, it's been a challenge to me to write BLOKES. They're not better, not worse, and certainly not less emotional than my previous POV characters, just their ways of expressing emotions are different. The whole male dynamic is different, and my challenge has been to try to stay true to who my characters are while still challenging them and pursuing my plot.
As for Jack being the marrying kind...I think at his core, he would like to be.
YES. He would DEFINITELY like to be. He envies the stability. The surety. But at the same time, I think he, like John, would go stark raving BONKERS if he didn't have the promise of variety. Like most men of action, a living hell for Jack would be an eternity of Same.
Which is why I will NEVER forgive the canon writers for giving Jack 100 YEARS of servitude as a vassal of Torchwood. Talk about neutering a guy.
Worst mistake since someone put an anti-violence chip in Spike.
He comes from a strong family unit.
Which was utterly shattered by the loss of youngest son and father. What happened to Jack after that has always intrigued me. My version is a bit more tragic and angsty than most.
Also, it's not the least bit practical given the nature of TW.
*nodnodnodnodnod* TW is not exactly the kind of organization you join if you want to live a long life.
Jack's drawn to him because Jack can just be Jack and not The Captain, all the time.
And because, much as Ianto loves and respects Jack, he also is willing to lampoon him a little and bring him down to size. Ianto's acerbic wit is, IMNSHO, one of the things that Jack enjoys most. They tease each other mercilessly, and that's part of the thing that makes their relationship work. And because their relationship works, it sets the tone for the rest of the crew.
Which TW member did Jack shoot?
Suzie, IIRC. He shoots her so she won't kill Gwen in the first episode. That's how Gwen gets onto the team, TW3 being a one-in-one-out organization.
John may be a good Top, and he may be well acquainted with Dark!Jack but, as Jack said in Exit Wounds, he was the one in control of John. Jack may be the ONLY person John has submitted to, though.
I think that Jack is grandstanding when he said he's the only one who could "control" John. John is clearly smarter than him. More ruthless than him. A better liar than him. I think Jack has a seriously edited the nature of their relationship, in part for the same reason he won't admit publicly that he loves Ianto -- if he makes light and less of it and pretends HE is in control, maybe he can escape his own emotions about it. He loves John, more passionately than perhaps anyone but Nine, but John is messy, unpredictable, and often ill-considered in his decisions. He's a liability, and -- as Jack tells Ianto -- a reminder of what Jack was. He's gotten so complacent in his new life and new authority that John scares the shit out of him, in part because John can be VERY seductive, and Jack does miss the life he's left behind, so many years ago.
That's why I'm writing what I'm writing -- the canon authors seem hell-bent on ignoring these deeper issues with Jack. I understand this, because Jack IS fun to write when he's charming and flirtatious. But I still call them cowards not to confront this bizarre thing they've created in Immortal!Jack. He has Issues no one else will.
And as of yet, he has no kryptonite, which, IMNSHO, is a cop-out.
Re: *plays Devil's Advocate*
Date: 2009-01-22 04:38 am (UTC)granted, I'm only guessing but I have begun to suspect that Jack DID separate from TW from time to time, such as when he went to war. I don't have much foundation for this, but I think Jack would come back from time to time in a very mercenary like fashion just to make some money. Additionally, as the power structure in TW changed, so would the treatment of Jack and therefore, how much time he would spend with them. For example, he would try to avoid Emily and Alice but I think we can agree Gerald treated Jack decently. By the time of Alex, Jack is a valued team member and has great affection for that team.
Do NOT get me started! *snort*
I started to write something to this effect in my last comment but I thought it diverged from my real point! I agree, though!
I'm going to go away and ponder your take on Jack & John. I don't tend to agree but you make a good case. Enough of one that I'm going to go give it some thought. Who knows, I might end up exploring the idea in a fic. It's a dark enough topic it's right up my alley! It would not be the first time I revised my view of certain characters. What makes me think Jack did control John is that John is a loose canon and Jack is not quite as unhinged and is capable of a much more calculating thought. Jack's softening is due to his character redemption at the hands of the Doctor.
I think that's why I'm currently enamored with writing about Dark!Jack coming out to play, I've noticed the lack of dealing with Jack's darker side.
Kryptonite. Huh. I would possibly say that Jack is his own kryptonite. Letting John walk away twice. Freezing Gray. Letting Gwen walk all over him. We could also suspect that Ianto is Jack's kryptonite. He just haven't seen it in action yet.
Re: *plays Devil's Advocate*
Date: 2009-01-22 06:18 am (UTC)Re: *plays Devil's Advocate*
Date: 2009-01-22 06:20 am (UTC)Point is, at some point, Jack blows her away.
Re: *plays Devil's Advocate*
Date: 2009-01-21 05:49 pm (UTC)I guess what I was trying to say was two fold:
1) what I write can do it for me, and often does. But only after it's written. Not in coming up with the idea of it, and not in the act of writing. Only when it's complete, will I enjoy it. In terms of sex, I seem to be an auditor, and not a creator. I was trying to figure out why that is in writing. What I came up with:
2) I think of sex as almost wholly an exercise of fantasy, and how can characters have fantasies that are too fucked up in comparison to what they're doing, when they're supposed to be the fantasies themselves?
Re: *plays Devil's Advocate*
Date: 2009-01-21 05:55 pm (UTC)The same way we do as actual people. You do realize how utterly *shocking* or weird or edgy or "for real, real people do that" a lot of people would find a lot of the things both you and I have done?
Re: *plays Devil's Advocate*
Date: 2009-01-21 06:01 pm (UTC)Re: *plays Devil's Advocate*
Date: 2009-01-21 06:03 pm (UTC)2. Darth Vader -- I just... I got nothing. But it goes back to my tentacle remark to Sam -- how do you write that so it's not HILARIOUS?
3. If we wrote what people were looking for, would we be writing IHNIIHBT? Maybe. But the backstory with Nine? Probably not.
4. People often don't know what they are looking for until they find it. *cue romance music*
5. Fuck 'em.
Re: *plays Devil's Advocate*
Date: 2009-01-21 06:11 pm (UTC)2. YES. The hilarity is a problem. How do you go there in all seriousness? But remember the boots??? Real people do it. (I mean, not to say that wasn't hilarious, but you know what I mean.)
3. Ultimately, it's about what the characters do, not what the readers want. But still. How to convey appropriately. *g*
Re: *plays Devil's Advocate*
Date: 2009-01-21 06:12 pm (UTC)2. Wha boots? I feel I've forgotten something important.
3. Well, its why we edit. Unlike Anne Rice.
Re: *plays Devil's Advocate*
Date: 2009-01-21 06:15 pm (UTC)Remember when we saw Revenge of the Sith?? And I was, um, obsessed??? And you had this idea about jedi boots....
Re: *plays Devil's Advocate*
Date: 2009-01-21 06:16 pm (UTC)Re: *plays Devil's Advocate*
Date: 2009-01-21 11:31 pm (UTC)*starts giggling*
Actually, I LOVE having humour in my porn, from having Nine forget there was a wall behind him and crack his head on it to people tripping, to Ten finding his shoes were LITERALLY on the wrong feet.
For me, having these little faults and foibles and screwups only makes the sex hotter. 1) It lets the characters be real people, 2) It relieves the tension just a little so characters and readers alike can relax into it, 3) IRL, the best sex isn't always the one from which you emerge with pride unscathed.
FWIW