Writing sex: a confession

[fictional]

It may come as a surprise to those of you who read IHNIIHBT, which is sort of a pornographic epic, but I greatly dislike writing sex.

No, really.

I hate it a lot. Which is funny because lately, we've been doing a lot of it.

Don't get me wrong. I love that our story is so filthy and x-rated. In fact, sometimes I even think it could stand to be filthier. I like reading sex. Oh man, do I. Porn, for me, is a primarily written-word driven thing, and it was that way long before I discovered fandom and its box of erotic delights. Think reading bodice-rippers and skimming my way through Tess of the D'Urbervilles at seven, desperately (and unsuccessfully, fuck you, Thomas Hardy) searching for the dirty bits...! Flipping through the Mists of Avalon for the threesome scene, etc. etc.

But writing it? A resounding "feh!"

For one thing, it's really hard [no pun intended]. Sex is repetitive. We have a finite number of moving parts, we have a finite number of slots for those parts to fit into. We tweak, we stroke, we push, we pull, we slap, we tickle; we get wet, we get hard. It feels great, except when it doesn't. And if you add in too many adverbs and adjectives -- you run the risk of sounding like a romance novel, a bad romance novel.

I don't know about you, but I have sex in my head. If my brain isn't getting off, I can spasm all I want, but I haven't come. It's no good to me without the brainfuck. There's an internal narrative always going on -- which mirrors to varying degrees what's actually happening in the physical, corporeal world. Sometimes, the degree is zero. Things I would never do "for real", things I would find actively offensive or disturbing if I weren't in bed, and believing that the things people imagine or play at in order to find pleasure are all perfectly okay.¹

Thing is, when you're writing, the characters can't have internal narratives, unrelated to what's around them, because they're already in a narrative! Hell, they are the narrative. And of what interest to the reader -- who's using your story to furnish their own fantasy about say, Jack and Ianto -- is an internal, unrelated narrative that the character might possibly be having, if they were real? My feeling is, generally speaking, probably not much. Because that's like being OOC on purpose, and no one wants to see that, right?

So there's ways around it. Hence: dirty talk, d/s, drag, s & m, 3somes -- all games that are all about the stories you tell yourself. Narratives embraced and imposed.

But. I have to wonder, what are the fantasies of fantasies? What are the stories that stories whisper to themselves in the dark, or the ones they hold tightly to themselves, too ashamed even to say out loud?

Because that? That might be hot.


¹That's what I tell myself anyway. Rationalizations: more important than sex. Think about it. Ever made it through a day without a rationalization? Yeah..

Comments

[jlh.livejournal.com]

I find writing about the character's fantasies, and the fulfillment thereof (or not, as the case may be) to be hot, but also can be beyond that to intensely loving when we're talking about one character using their body/mind/spirit to fulfill the fantasy of a loved one—a fantasy that was confessed in the first place because of the trust that the two characters have in each other. Even better if you can tie the fantasy to some kind of psychological aspect of at least the character doing the asking, and you can demonstrate that the giving character understands that to some degree. And then you have (1) hot kinky sex (2) that expresses the love and trust two characters have for each other (3) and explores psychological aspects of one or both characters. Everybody wins!

I admit, it's even gotten to the point where I'll suggest something that the characters are doing, have them talk about some scenario, but not actually write that out. It's like, conceptual sex. Very modern.

Compared to that, first times? First times are kind of boring; where are the layers?

[kalichan.livejournal.com]

It's like, conceptual sex. Very modern.

Best sentence ever. And also, hot!

But yeah, I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that if it's not a story about stories, in some way, if it doesn't have, as you say, "layers" -- why bother??

When I'm writing kink, it's about the kink and what that says about the people, psychological complexity, meta-narrative, etc etc. And love and trust of course. Or lack thereof. But it's funny because the actual *sex* part of it? Tab a, slot b? That often just feels like a slog to write though not necessarily to read. And that's what I find peculiar; that I like to read it, (if done well clearly) but not the act of writing it (though I hope it's still done well, of course.)

[kahtyasofia.livejournal.com]

I'm of a completely different mindset. I think we're about to prove that writers themselves vary as greatly. I like to write sex. I like to think it up, I like to write it down. It's the emotion that stumps me every time. I run out of ways to express fear, insecurity, love, betrayal, depression, UST...you name it. Yes, we may be limited in the number of body parts and believable positions, but the variety comes in HOW you get to penetration, not penetration itself. That's just me, though.

*plays Devil's Advocate*

[loveslashangst.livejournal.com]

Two of the best sex scenes I ever wrote had characters that were fully clothed and remained so (or pretty well clothed). I have a thing for Chapters 6, so see also my FAITHFUL and DANCING LESSONS.

For me, the boring in sex scenes comes (*juvenile giggle*) in forgetting that they are SCENES first and SEX second. If the characters are exactly the same at the end of the scene as they were at the beginning, with no advancement of plot, no emotional development, no hints at backstory, a static POV who risks nothing of him/herself and, in short, no GROWTH (*another juvenile giggle*), I'll feel I've utterly failed. The sex will feel stilted. Rehearsed. Like a series of schemata or an over-rehearsed dance...

"You do this to me, two, three, four...
"I do this to you, two, three four..."

In rading others' work, that'll be the point at which my eyes glaze over and I flip to the next web page.

(Myself, I don't go on the hunt for smut, though my Beta Ophymirage is constantly cluing me in to the latest, greatest, and the classics. Were it not for her, I'd be a complete hermit, which is why I love her to death.)

The scenes that do it for me are the ones that give me just enough WANTING. It's that intent that makes my blood rush a little faster through all the right veins and arteries. I love the wooing. The wanting. The long looks. The first touches. The tentative overtures. Even the awkward moments that everyone has, where you WANT more than you feel you'll get to have, and both parties are fighting mutual desire.

Why d'you think Master/Ten can be Teh Hawtness?

I also qualify sex as being far more than penetration. Far more than who's "on top". Even more than who does or does not ejaculate (or reach orgasm in a bunch of other ways.) Sex is a form of communication. It's the wish to give and receive pleasure in all its many and multitudinous forms. And the character of the person who is giving, receiving, or (best of all possible worlds) sharing, to me will always steer HOW that person communicates.

As such, I have yet to exhaust all the possible configurations, emotions, attitudes, and -- yes -- positions that might yield up sexual pleasure for my characters.

For me, a sex scene needs to be more than, "Hey, I'd really like to do the horizontal mambo with you." For me, it's about what leads up to the mambo. What steps are in the mambo. And (too often neglected), what happens AFTER the mambo is over.

I go through several drafts of any chapter/story that I put up. Sex features prominently in most of them, because I write what I know and what I like to read.

I know that I'm on the right track if just thinking about the scene makes me need to go have some time in my bunk.

I know I've REALLY got something if Ophymirage has to stop beta-ing to go have some time in her bunk.

I take it as the sincerest compliment if my fen are too incoherent to give a decent review because they need to retreat to their bunks.

IN SUM: In my not-so-humble opinion, Sex should always assist plot and speak to character and relationship. But at the end of the day, if what I write didn't DO IT for me, I'd hang up my pen.

*chimes in*

[ophymirage.livejournal.com]

I find, having now tried to write a couple of scenes semi-succesfully, and having read a LOT, that my tastes when I'm writing and when I'm reading are really different.

Writing: I found the sex easy and hot to envision, the tab A/slot B part of it, and had fun plotting the lead-up, the schematics and mechanics, and coming up with descriptors. (I like doing this for LSA's fics, too.) Figuring out the emotion and the "where is this going?" was WAY more difficult! it made shoving the two together into a working plot a really rewarding challenge, though.

Reading: Like Kalichan above, I'm often about the brainfuck - if I can't get into the characters' heads with empathy, feeling what they're feeling emotionally and projecting that into, well, self-indulgence, I'm less likely to get off. However, there are times when all I really want is tab A/slot B, like RIGHT NOW, and good descriptors are more than enough to set me off. It actually seems to go about 50/50.

This may have to do with the fact that some of my earliest readings on the subject were sex manuals (Joy of, Everything You Wanted to Know) and the Beauty series. OH, and Nana, by Emile Zola. Slightly more productive than Hardy for naughty bits, but not by much..

[kalichan.livejournal.com]

Well, yes. Writers are all different, and I, in no way, felt that I was making a blanket statement for all writers. At all. I can even tell from reading your stuff, that you're someone who profoundly enjoys writing the sex bits. Which is great. For me it's just difficult. And while I do top on occasion, I far prefer not to, because I react much better than I come up with stuff; even in "real life" I'm a reader, and not a writer. My partner (who incidentally writes phenomenal porn, though not fanfic) is really great at coming up with ideas; I just sort of lazily lay back and audit. And while, with other people, things have been different, it's always been much harder for me to be the propelling, new idea force. Conceivably I'm just (sexually) lazy. *g*

[ophymirage.livejournal.com]

But. I have to wonder, what are the fantasies of fantasies? What are the stories that stories whisper to themselves in the dark, or the ones they hold tightly to themselves, too ashamed even to say out loud?

Because that? That might be hot.

*shivers* with agreement

*looks down and finds plotbunny threatening to gnaw on ankle*

that's settling in my head like a penny in water.. giving off little flashes of interest.. will have to see where it settles..

[kalichan.livejournal.com]

*grin* Yeah, rm had the same experience when we were chatting about this last night at the bar! Go, go, go, little plotbunny! I'm dying to see what people come up with.

[framefolly.livejournal.com]

"Think reading bodice-rippers and skimming my way through Tess of the D'Urbervilles at seven, desperately (and unsuccessfully, fuck you, Thomas Hardy) searching for the dirty bits...!"

o_0!

Wow. Your precociousness is totally off the charts!

[magnetgirl.livejournal.com]

I'd like to tell you she's full of it, you know, so the rest of us don't feel bad? But it's true.

F'in high-bar setter!

[kalichan.livejournal.com]

Hahah. I wouldn't say that. My mom just put that book away on a shelf informing me that it was Not Allowed Because It Was Too Adult. And I was all, "Really? Awesome!" But damn those 19th century authors and their euphemisms for sex & rape and what not. I've never really forgiven Hardy for it, honestly.

[troygirl68.livejournal.com]

I totally hear you!
I've only just started dipping into fic writing, but writing porn is soooo hard (no pun intended!) I get bogged down by the mechanics of it (I guess that's the scientist in me; I read back and fee like I've written a news report!)

And I LOVE reading it. I blame my best friend's older sister who had us reading the likes of Judith Krantz by the time we were 12. I don't really care to watch hard core (that might have something to do with watching videos I found in my parents room when i was 14. I was a little nervous about certain appendages after THAT experience!)

Anyway, you and Rach do a great job writing it, whether you like it or not. Just thinking about fantasies of fantasies is hot ..... I'm a little flushed which is too funny because I'm about to go present a proposal to a client whi is REALLY HOT and he has twin brothers who are EVEN HOTTER. Me nad my business partner will talk dirty about them all the way there in the car!!

[kalichan.livejournal.com]

Hahaha. I totally feel you on the Judith Krantz thing, and oddly, I've still got an embarrassing fondness for those books because of reading them young and going, "mmmm, hot.."

Thank you ;-) We try.

And yay, hot client!!! And twin brothers? Jesus. That's like straight out of porn.

[copperbadge.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure it's true that you can't have a character having an unrelated internal narrative during sex -- there's an excellent fic called "Getting to Yes" (I can link if you want) where Ianto is constantly distracted, during sex, by the idea of topping Jack despite the fact that he's nervous about asking. I've written a story that doesn't have sex in it directly but in which Ianto implies that Jack isn't actually the greatest guy ever in bed because as a flexible "dancer" he expects his partners to tell him their fantasies without him asking, but they don't because he doesn't ask, so he assumes they're not that imaginative in bed, and the whole vicious cycle continues...

I think there are ways around writing OOC brainfuck fantasies, because nothing really is OOC if you do it right. Especially if there's an admission of the fantasy and shame over it -- not shame in the deep-seated sense, but like you said there are things we think of during sex that we wouldn't necessarily think of, or would find offensive, at any other time.

The sex you write is hot, and that's great, but sex doesn't have to be about the reader's sexual fulfillment too -- which is actually why I write way less sex than I used to. 99% of the time now, I use sex in a story as a means to a narrative end -- and at least with IHNIIHBT I think you're often doing the same.

You have a gentle touch with narrative that doesn't flinch from confrontation, and that lends itself well to handling themes that others might only be able to write as OOC. I think an exploration of J/I's private fantasies might be very, very interesting -- especially Jack, who is on the one hand uninhibited but on the other living in a very inhibited time, when he likely has to keep a lot to himself for fear of scaring off his partners. As for Ianto...well. Very concerned with his dignity, Ianto is, and sex is by definition pretty undignified...

[rm.livejournal.com]

When we were having this discussion last night, I was also advocating for the idea that it is possible to do this in fiction, and that now I really wanted to (although IHNIIBT has no room for it, as we are now about 60% done with the last piece which has to do all sorts of really specific things). I think where it gets complicated isn't where the sex and the fantasies during sex don't match so much as when the sex and the fantasies during sex aren't about the same people. My question isn't how to not make it OOC, my question is how to not make it hilarious -- because Jack getting fucked by Ianto while fantasizing about tentacles: probably hot for Jack, completely hilarious for the reader however.

That said, we spent an immense amount of time talking about our Jenny fic last night. You're going to be a very happy boy.

[kalichan.livejournal.com]

Probably I made blanket statements, where I should'nt have been. Of course there are ways to do this. And of course, if you're a great writer, you ought to be able to sell almost anything. [yes, link please?]

but sex doesn't have to be about the reader's sexual fulfillment too -- which is actually why I write way less sex than I used to. 99% of the time now, I use sex in a story as a means to a narrative end -- and at least with IHNIIHBT I think you're often doing the same.

No, of course we are. And now that I've been thinking about this, and Rach has been thinking about it, I'm 98% sure we'll have a go at some point. BUT without it being about your reader *ahem* reaching the mountain top, as it were, or reading with only one hand scrolling -- it's still about fantasy fulfillment, isn't it? I mean, that's what people read fic for... to fill in gaps, to spend more time with people/worlds that they've fallen for via tv or book or movie or whatever. And when the fantasy -- by its nature more extreme than reality in whatever way -- has sex, I feel it might be hard to make it narratively satisfying by adding that other, unrelated layer.

As I said, upthread, is it fair, in a story to have Ianto doing something *really fucked up and edgy* to Jack, say strangling him -- and the narrative in his head is about something even more fucked up that that? Or unrelated to being there with Jack, like I don't know, pretending he's Darth Vader (who also likes to strangle people)? And while when we have fantasies like that, they can be perfectly serious, especially if unspoken, is there a way to say that in a fic with a straight face? Is it what people are looking for???

an exploration of J/I's private fantasies might be very, very interesting -- especially Jack, who is on the one hand uninhibited but on the other living in a very inhibited time, when he likely has to keep a lot to himself for fear of scaring off his partners. As for Ianto...well. Very concerned with his dignity, Ianto is, and sex is by definition pretty undignified...

mmm. Yes. *percolates*

[magnetgirl.livejournal.com]

You never did like coming up with sex scenes. I remember that. Even though you TOTALLY still owe me one!

I grok you on the limited numbers of parts, etc, and this is why threesomes, dirty games, etc are nessecary. Funnily enough, I feel that way about actual sex in life, too! I help myself these days by refocusing my brain on what's happening so I don't start thinking too much-i.e., "Mmmm...lipslipssuckingwetsmellingreallygood." It's like the CNN news ticker that scrolls across the bottom of the screen! That, or I just say any filthy thing that comes into my head. I really like dirty talking for keeping my intellectual mind busy while the body enjoys ;)

Of course, neither of these solutions work in prose, but let me just say that your scenes are awesome, so stop worrying about it-not pontificating on it, because this post is total gold-but don't worry. You and rm write very, very sexy. And write WELL when writing sexy-extension of the story and all that a la the best sex scenes on QaF!

[kalichan.livejournal.com]

You never did like coming up with sex scenes. I remember that. Even though you TOTALLY still owe me one!

Oh, you know me so well. But yeah, 85% of the reason I like to bottom is because I'm bad at coming up with shit.

just say any filthy thing that comes into my head. I really like dirty talking for keeping my intellectual mind busy while the body enjoys ;)

I like it for that reason too, but you know, I don't talk. I just listen. D. is some kind of saint for putting up with me, I swear.

And thanks! For a wonder, I actually wasn't worried. I'm pretty comfortable with the hotness of our sex scenes. I just thought it was interesting -- the way I feel that characters can't have fantasies because they are fantasies. Although other folk seem to think there's a way of doing it, and I anxiously await results.

[kel-reiley.livejournal.com]

i know exactly what you mean
never been able to articulate it so well, myself

[kalichan.livejournal.com]

*grins* Thanks! It sort of came to me in flashbulb-y way last night, and I had to write it down to see if it were true? Like I knew it was hard for me, and then I was like, "hmmm... maybe this is why!"

[contrarywise]

It took me a while to be able to write smut at all, and when I started out it was quite a chore because I couldn't get into the characters' heads enough to hook myself in. It was all external descriptions of the acts and choreography. And pretty damn boring. That changed when PC Andy, bless him, gave me a glimpse of a D/s scene between him and Ianto that was hot as hell to me, and I wrote that from inside his head. Since then, my best fic has grown from a foundation image or piece of dialog that grabs me and makes me want to follow it to the end.

Some of us *waves* have a cast of characters living in our heads, and they whisper things to us on occasion that turn into passionate stories, sexual or otherwise. So yeah, my characters often do have internal narratives running along during sex that I'm aware of, or at least they have thoughts and reactions that may diverge from what's actually going on. Also, while I am hoping to please readers with what I post, I care about pleasing my characters and serving the story at least as much. If what comes out of that process doesn't jibe with a particular reader's kinks and buttons, oh well. Maybe next time. Hopefully what I get down in words isn't OOC, so particular or so divergent from reality or canon (without a solid explanation, that is) that it fails to engage anyone but me. That's one of my big writerly fears, actually--that I'm the only one who will think what I'm writing is funny/interesting/hot/whatever.

Another thing that took me a while to get--writing a sex scene isn't any different from writing any other sort of character interaction. You still have characterization, action, motivation, conflict and resolution to deal with. Sex is narrative, it's a form of communication, and it reveals different things about the people involved. And personally, I can get into internal narratives running alongside sex if there's a good reason to show it. That's one of the things I loved about the end of the last installment of IHNIIBT--that Ianto was clearly reacting to something very different from the man he was with in the moment, and he could neither explain it to Jack nor stop doing that. It was heartbreaking but real, and it worked beautifully for me.

So clearly, your struggles with writing sex pay off in the results. If you keep going with the process, I'll certainly enjoy the product.

[kalichan.livejournal.com]

Some of us *waves* have a cast of characters living in our heads, and they whisper things to us on occasion that turn into passionate stories, sexual or otherwise...Also, while I am hoping to please readers with what I post, I care about pleasing my characters and serving the story at least as much.

Oh yeah, we are so on board that train too. For me, the problem is, they're just different from me, and sometimes, in the midst of writing they leave me hanging. Like. Jack is sexually innovative. If he goes away and doesn't tell me what the hell he's going to do next -- I'm at a loss, because in real life, I'm not the one who innovates, I am far more likely to be the one innovated upon.

You still have characterization, action, motivation, conflict and resolution to deal with. Sex is narrative, it's a form of communication, and it reveals different things about the people involved. And personally, I can get into internal narratives running alongside sex if there's a good reason to show it. That's one of the things I loved about the end of the last installment of IHNIIBT--that Ianto was clearly reacting to something very different from the man he was with in the moment, and he could neither explain it to Jack nor stop doing that. It was heartbreaking but real, and it worked beautifully for me.

Thank you. =D And you are totally right there about sex being narrative. And when there's time spent on that, I think it's much easier for me personally to write. *g*

*waves*

[ophymirage.livejournal.com]

by the way, having now sporfled all over this LJ entry, I really ought to say something introductory. HI, I'm ophymirage. I beta for loveslashangst's fiction and post occasional stories on her LJ; though I've clearly been a pr0n-hound for years :), I'm still very new to the writing of it.

kalichan, I found you via the Children of Time awards, and I have to say, your fic is some of the best I've read this last year. I'm always overjoyed to find writers I can really sink metaphorical teeth into, and I'm really enjoying the thoughtful meta of this discussion as well. Thanks for letting me comment!

Re: *waves*

[kalichan.livejournal.com]

Hi! Pleasure to meet you.

rm and I are delighted that you're enjoying our fic. And it's been great chatting with you in comments too. *grins* Sex sells, I guess, and this post and its resulting threads have been great for bringing all us sick monkeys out to chat. Even if it has been distracting me today from what I ought to be doing which is working on the next (and last chunk) of the epic that spawned the discussion in the first place. rm is longing to get on with writing, but can't till I email her back... and I seem to have stalled us a little today.

I'm writing too, Rach, if you're reading this!

[exbentley]

Oh my god, I feel too braindead to do more than go, I completely agree. I love reading and analysing sex scenes, and I even like coming up with ideas for sex scenes, but the act of placing word next to word and trying to make something limited convey something expansive and layered without being downright pretentious is ... painful.

I used to write a lot of sex in HP fandom, because I was fascinated by the fact that what I found hot was not totally unique, but certainly didn't mirror the volumes of romance novel touch and thrust and groan and kiss that perpetuated itself. I like my sex dark and messy and uncomfortable — not to the point of humorous realism, maybe, I'm not talking pubic hair between the teeth here, but also not the blossoming romantic magic that so much fanfiction is prey to.

OKAY! Apparently not braindead enough to stop oversharing my own experiences. What I actually wanted to comment on was: Ever made it through a day without a rationalization? — now that is one hell of a premise for a sci-fi short story.

[kalichan.livejournal.com]

the act of placing word next to word and trying to make something limited convey something expansive and layered without being downright pretentious is ... painful.

It's kind of magic, isn't it? Like music. So few actual notes -- and yet combining them, and the possiblities seem endless, but also SO FREAKING HARD.

Hey, no such thing as oversharing here! I made a post about writing into a post ABOUT MY SEX LIFE. Clearly, I lack boundaries.

Ever made it through a day without a rationalization? — now that is one hell of a premise for a sci-fi short story.

Mmm... say more...